J.G.’s "UFC 51" Mailbag
Josh Gross Feb 8, 2005
Can’t believe it’s been almost eight months since I joined Sherdog
and it’s taken me this long to compile my first mailbag. There’s
nothing better than exchanging thoughts with you guys. And since
I’m not a regular on the forum this is the best way to chat with
readers and get a good sense for what the fans are thinking.
There’s one big theme coming out of Saturday’s UFC 51 card: Who won, Tito or Vitor? I give my take, plus where I think both light heavyweights go from here. Several of you emailed about Andrei Arlovski after his impressive win over Tim Sylvia. Is he ready for Fedor? Also, I include a solid email about Sean Sherk.
Tito or Vitor?
Oooooookay ... Where are you getting it that either fighter's future in the UFC is in doubt? Either way they both fought valiantly! Who is saying the split decision is was b.s.? I do not think it was. What do you think? – Jason C Hirth
Anyhow, I had Vitor winning two rounds to one. There’s not much debate about the second and third rounds, with the latter going to Belfort and the former going to Ortiz.
Let me ask you a question about round one. Walking back to the corner after the opening five minutes, which man would you have rather been?
That’s the question I ask myself when scoring a fight. And to me the answer was obvious. Sure Tito controlled the final minute and a half, and yes he landed some elbows. But that wasn’t enough to steal the round, especially when in the first three and a half minutes he was in trouble twice.
People tend to focus on finished takedowns. But for me, preventing a takedown is just as important. How many did Belfort stop in round one? And even when he did end up on the floor, it was because of scrambling effort by Ortiz, not the picture-perfect tackle he’d get later in the fight.
When I score a fight off of television like you did, I make a point to turn down the audio—at least for a second viewing. All of you interested in this fight, watch it without the sound and let me know what you think of the scoring.
(That said, I haven’t seen a replay. But live, ringside, this is the way I had it. And after talking to many media people whose opinion I value, only two—InsideFighting’s Jason Probst and Sherdog’s Mike Sloan—had it for Tito.)
As far as your other question goes, both Belfort and Ortiz are now free agents. My sense is Belfort will not return to the UFC. And, as hard as it is to believe, the same may be true for Tito.
More Tito-Vitor …
How can the UFC not sign Tito and Vitor? These guys are awesome fighters and are still some of the best fighters the UFC have! – Erik Vahidi
First, let’s talk Vitor. He’s already made his intentions known. If they’ll have him, he’s going to PRIDE. And from what I gather, the UFC has no problem letting him go.
He wasn’t a major pay-per-view draw; he wasn’t cooperative when it came to doing PR; and he was only 2-3 since returning to the UFC in 2002.
If he isn’t the dominating Belfort that made him a favorite in the early portion of his career, and he can’t sell a fight, what incentive is there for the UFC to drop top dollar on him?
Now Tito. He’s a .500 fighter since beating Ken Shamrock in 2002 but, unlike Belfort, he’s been an amazing draw. Ortiz has been part of the UFC’s two biggest gates, UFC 47 and Saturday’s UFC 51. And he’s headlined the majority of the “new” UFC’s biggest events since starting in 2001.
If that weren’t reason enough for the UFC to re-sign him, what would be the Las Vegas company’s worst nightmare? Yup, PRIDE.
With it looking more likely that the Japanese promotion will make its stateside debut this year—California is set to sanction MMA on Feb. 22 (unless the commissioners can’t make it to the meeting again)—how does Tito Ortiz vs. Wanderlei Silva in the Staples Center sound? I’m guessing a lot like Dana White slamming his hairless head into a desk.
If for no other reason than to prevent PRIDE from getting him, the UFC needs to re-sign Ortiz. But will it pony up $300,000 per fight that Ortiz is purported to be asking for? I don’t think so.
What happens if both Belfort and Ortiz leave, and Couture retires in a year? All of a sudden 205 in the UFC is thinner than my hair. (See Dana, I can joke about it, too.)
… What, You Thought We Were Moving On?
What was Tito running through the crowd after his fight last night? You wrote that it was like he was saying goodbye. You really think so? And what about that WWF stuff with Chuck and Shammy? – No Name Given
My sense when watching Ortiz run through the crowd was that he was so relieved that the fight was over and that he could vent, that he just freaked out a bit. Who knows if it was really his way of saying thanks, but it sure felt like it. I would have liked to ask him that at the post-fight press conference, but he left before anyone could ask him questions.
As far as the post-fight WWE antics, I skipped ‘em. I headed back to the media room as soon as the fight ended, though I caught the tail end of Ken Shamrock’s rant. I have no idea what’s causing Tito to balk at a rematch with Ken. He’d win again and it could go a long way towards getting back in the title picture, though if you read my story (/news/articles/on-eve-of-belfort-showdown-ortiz-excited-about-his-future-2389) about him on Saturday you probably know he doesn’t seem to care much about that.
Nope, Still Talking Tito-Vitor …
That fight should have been 5 rounds!! Tito would have finished Vitor and none of this bad decision talk would have been going on. What do you think? –- Bob Shaw
Funny, I was just talking about this with a colleague. It first popped into my mind when Tito fought Liddell. There’s no way fights of these caliber should be limited to 15 minutes. In fact, I want to propose a change to the round limits:
Fights between relative newcomers, or fighters with marginal records should be three five-minute rounds. Bouts between top-level fighters (Ortiz-Liddell, Ortiz-Belfort, Liddell-Belfort) should be 25 minutes, and all title fights should be pushed to seven rounds.
Sure 35 minutes seems like an obscenely long time to fight, but championship boxing bouts are 36 minutes and MMA has a long tradition of extended fights. It would mean less fights for the pay-per-view audience, but as the sport grows changes like these need to be considered.
As far as Tito finishing Vitor, I agree with you. Ortiz took control in round three and the Brazilian seemed to be fading. A fourth or fifth round might have been enough to see a stoppage.
… One More
Do you think either Tito or Vitor will ever be title contenders again? I saw in your pickin’ and grinnin’ picks that you said Vitor was one of the biggest disappointments in MMA. What does he need to do to change your mind? -- Ray Humphries
Vitor is the biggest disappointment in the history of MMA. There’s never been a guy with that much talent who couldn’t put it together mentally. I’m not sure what happened except to say Randy Couture broke him.
I don’t think he can change it. It’s been so long since he was tested and reacted well that it seems impossible for him to do it. If he goes to PRIDE, things won’t get any easier. Can he beat Rampage Jackson? Wanderlei? What about Dan Henderson?
I don’t see it.
A Belarusian And Mexican-American Walk Into A Bar
I liked the fights on Saturday, especially Arlovski who looked awesome and Paul Buentello. Where’s that guy been hiding? I want to see these two guys fight! – Felix Chung
I’m not sure if Arlovski looked great (well, he did) or if Tim Sylvia looked downright awful (well, he did). I don’t think there’s a more athletic heavyweight in the world than Arlovski. Does that mean he’s the best fighter at his weight? No. But good luck finding a guy his size with the type of footwork, agility and quickness.
And Paul, well he’s been hiding in almost every small show west of Amarillo. The guy has worked so hard the past seven years and you have to feel good for someone like that. Justin Eilers is a tough kid, but it was unfair to think that he could beat a veteran like Buentello, even if it was his UFC debut.
Arlovski-Buentello? Not yet. Give ‘em a year. Paul needs at least three more fights in the UFC (and if he’s given the right opponents, he can become a star) and Arlovski has to meet Frank Mir. If Mir isn’t capable of fighting, then who knows. But I’d like to see Paul get some time in the Octagon before he’s thrown in against Andrei.
Seeing Red
Fedor vs. Arlovski … who you got? – No Name Given
Fedor’s the best heavyweight in the world, hands down. So if that fight happens today, I’m picking him. But if Arlovski continues to improve at his current rate, I wouldn’t mind seeing these guys fight 18 months from now.
I know in MMA that’s a lifetime, but I don’t see anyone knocking Fedor off during that period, and Arlovski needs the ring experience to get ready for his countryman.
Remember Sean Sherk
Just read your article on Sean Sherk (/news/articles/sherk-pessimistic-about-his-future-in-the-ring-2336) and it highlights some fundamental flaws in our sport that need to be corrected in order for it to stabilize and become a concrete reality in the States. I would like to also mention that Mr. Sherk's plight is a sad one. Fans can debate ability and quality of opponents all they like but the reality is that anyone who makes a dedicated effort to being a professional fighter deserves better than promoters canceling or having substandard conditions and precautions.
Mr. Sherk has shown himself to be a dedicated and upstanding figure in the sport. He isn't brash, or loudmouthed. He doesn't get into brawls at after parties. He doesn't get busted for using steroids. The sport needs more Sean Sherks, Randy Cotoures, Carlos Newtons, Kazushi Sakurabas, Fedor Emeliankos and Minotauros and not street thug braggarts with a punch i.e. Tito Ortiz, Phil Baroni or steroid monkeys like Josh Barnett and Ken Shamrock.
On the issue of the sport: Mr. Sherk is absolutely correct in every statement he made regarding an overhaul of the way the sport is conducted in the States. A sanctioning body is desperately needed for at least North America. Every Tom, Dick and Harry has a show with a belt. The trophies themselves mean nothing; every time a show comes out with a 'champion' wearing a belt, it dilutes the sport in the eyes of the mainstream the way boxing has hamstrung itself in the last 50 years. Casual viewers don't know the difference in KOTC, UFC, WEC or RITC. There must be one set of rules and one echelon of champions.
Additionally, a governing body could provide fair (fair enough at least) rankings for North America that would be independent of the promoter (hopefully). The benefits to having the governing body hold the belt as opposed to having the 'UFC Champion' is that the promotion would finally be split from the regulators and thus making the belt more legit. Even rollerblading has the XGames that are universally regarded as the pinnacle of the sport. ADCC is the same way for submission grappling.
If something like a governing body doesn't evolve soon to protect the fighters and the fans soon, I believe that this sport will never make it past the point that it is now. Hopefully this letter will reach the eyes of some of the folks with influence in the sport. Thanks for the article Mr. Gross. Keep sherdog.com bringing us the latest and greatest! – Michael Francis Ho-Lung, Fightin' Texas Aggie Class '03
Michael, my friends who graduated from Texas probably won’t be happy with me, but I had to include your great e-mail in The Bag.
Want to be heard? Shoot an email over to joshg@sherdog.com and it might make into J.G.’s Mailbag. I’m aiming at making this a regular thing, but I need your help to do that. Thanks, Josh.
There’s one big theme coming out of Saturday’s UFC 51 card: Who won, Tito or Vitor? I give my take, plus where I think both light heavyweights go from here. Several of you emailed about Andrei Arlovski after his impressive win over Tim Sylvia. Is he ready for Fedor? Also, I include a solid email about Sean Sherk.
Advertisement
Oooooookay ... Where are you getting it that either fighter's future in the UFC is in doubt? Either way they both fought valiantly! Who is saying the split decision is was b.s.? I do not think it was. What do you think? – Jason C Hirth
You aren’t related to Sherdog.com’s James Hirth, are you?
Anyhow, I had Vitor winning two rounds to one. There’s not much debate about the second and third rounds, with the latter going to Belfort and the former going to Ortiz.
Let me ask you a question about round one. Walking back to the corner after the opening five minutes, which man would you have rather been?
That’s the question I ask myself when scoring a fight. And to me the answer was obvious. Sure Tito controlled the final minute and a half, and yes he landed some elbows. But that wasn’t enough to steal the round, especially when in the first three and a half minutes he was in trouble twice.
People tend to focus on finished takedowns. But for me, preventing a takedown is just as important. How many did Belfort stop in round one? And even when he did end up on the floor, it was because of scrambling effort by Ortiz, not the picture-perfect tackle he’d get later in the fight.
When I score a fight off of television like you did, I make a point to turn down the audio—at least for a second viewing. All of you interested in this fight, watch it without the sound and let me know what you think of the scoring.
(That said, I haven’t seen a replay. But live, ringside, this is the way I had it. And after talking to many media people whose opinion I value, only two—InsideFighting’s Jason Probst and Sherdog’s Mike Sloan—had it for Tito.)
As far as your other question goes, both Belfort and Ortiz are now free agents. My sense is Belfort will not return to the UFC. And, as hard as it is to believe, the same may be true for Tito.
More Tito-Vitor …
How can the UFC not sign Tito and Vitor? These guys are awesome fighters and are still some of the best fighters the UFC have! – Erik Vahidi
First, let’s talk Vitor. He’s already made his intentions known. If they’ll have him, he’s going to PRIDE. And from what I gather, the UFC has no problem letting him go.
He wasn’t a major pay-per-view draw; he wasn’t cooperative when it came to doing PR; and he was only 2-3 since returning to the UFC in 2002.
If he isn’t the dominating Belfort that made him a favorite in the early portion of his career, and he can’t sell a fight, what incentive is there for the UFC to drop top dollar on him?
Now Tito. He’s a .500 fighter since beating Ken Shamrock in 2002 but, unlike Belfort, he’s been an amazing draw. Ortiz has been part of the UFC’s two biggest gates, UFC 47 and Saturday’s UFC 51. And he’s headlined the majority of the “new” UFC’s biggest events since starting in 2001.
If that weren’t reason enough for the UFC to re-sign him, what would be the Las Vegas company’s worst nightmare? Yup, PRIDE.
With it looking more likely that the Japanese promotion will make its stateside debut this year—California is set to sanction MMA on Feb. 22 (unless the commissioners can’t make it to the meeting again)—how does Tito Ortiz vs. Wanderlei Silva in the Staples Center sound? I’m guessing a lot like Dana White slamming his hairless head into a desk.
If for no other reason than to prevent PRIDE from getting him, the UFC needs to re-sign Ortiz. But will it pony up $300,000 per fight that Ortiz is purported to be asking for? I don’t think so.
What happens if both Belfort and Ortiz leave, and Couture retires in a year? All of a sudden 205 in the UFC is thinner than my hair. (See Dana, I can joke about it, too.)
… What, You Thought We Were Moving On?
What was Tito running through the crowd after his fight last night? You wrote that it was like he was saying goodbye. You really think so? And what about that WWF stuff with Chuck and Shammy? – No Name Given
My sense when watching Ortiz run through the crowd was that he was so relieved that the fight was over and that he could vent, that he just freaked out a bit. Who knows if it was really his way of saying thanks, but it sure felt like it. I would have liked to ask him that at the post-fight press conference, but he left before anyone could ask him questions.
As far as the post-fight WWE antics, I skipped ‘em. I headed back to the media room as soon as the fight ended, though I caught the tail end of Ken Shamrock’s rant. I have no idea what’s causing Tito to balk at a rematch with Ken. He’d win again and it could go a long way towards getting back in the title picture, though if you read my story (/news/articles/on-eve-of-belfort-showdown-ortiz-excited-about-his-future-2389) about him on Saturday you probably know he doesn’t seem to care much about that.
Nope, Still Talking Tito-Vitor …
That fight should have been 5 rounds!! Tito would have finished Vitor and none of this bad decision talk would have been going on. What do you think? –- Bob Shaw
Funny, I was just talking about this with a colleague. It first popped into my mind when Tito fought Liddell. There’s no way fights of these caliber should be limited to 15 minutes. In fact, I want to propose a change to the round limits:
Fights between relative newcomers, or fighters with marginal records should be three five-minute rounds. Bouts between top-level fighters (Ortiz-Liddell, Ortiz-Belfort, Liddell-Belfort) should be 25 minutes, and all title fights should be pushed to seven rounds.
Sure 35 minutes seems like an obscenely long time to fight, but championship boxing bouts are 36 minutes and MMA has a long tradition of extended fights. It would mean less fights for the pay-per-view audience, but as the sport grows changes like these need to be considered.
As far as Tito finishing Vitor, I agree with you. Ortiz took control in round three and the Brazilian seemed to be fading. A fourth or fifth round might have been enough to see a stoppage.
… One More
Do you think either Tito or Vitor will ever be title contenders again? I saw in your pickin’ and grinnin’ picks that you said Vitor was one of the biggest disappointments in MMA. What does he need to do to change your mind? -- Ray Humphries
Vitor is the biggest disappointment in the history of MMA. There’s never been a guy with that much talent who couldn’t put it together mentally. I’m not sure what happened except to say Randy Couture broke him.
I don’t think he can change it. It’s been so long since he was tested and reacted well that it seems impossible for him to do it. If he goes to PRIDE, things won’t get any easier. Can he beat Rampage Jackson? Wanderlei? What about Dan Henderson?
I don’t see it.
A Belarusian And Mexican-American Walk Into A Bar
I liked the fights on Saturday, especially Arlovski who looked awesome and Paul Buentello. Where’s that guy been hiding? I want to see these two guys fight! – Felix Chung
I’m not sure if Arlovski looked great (well, he did) or if Tim Sylvia looked downright awful (well, he did). I don’t think there’s a more athletic heavyweight in the world than Arlovski. Does that mean he’s the best fighter at his weight? No. But good luck finding a guy his size with the type of footwork, agility and quickness.
And Paul, well he’s been hiding in almost every small show west of Amarillo. The guy has worked so hard the past seven years and you have to feel good for someone like that. Justin Eilers is a tough kid, but it was unfair to think that he could beat a veteran like Buentello, even if it was his UFC debut.
Arlovski-Buentello? Not yet. Give ‘em a year. Paul needs at least three more fights in the UFC (and if he’s given the right opponents, he can become a star) and Arlovski has to meet Frank Mir. If Mir isn’t capable of fighting, then who knows. But I’d like to see Paul get some time in the Octagon before he’s thrown in against Andrei.
Seeing Red
Fedor vs. Arlovski … who you got? – No Name Given
Fedor’s the best heavyweight in the world, hands down. So if that fight happens today, I’m picking him. But if Arlovski continues to improve at his current rate, I wouldn’t mind seeing these guys fight 18 months from now.
I know in MMA that’s a lifetime, but I don’t see anyone knocking Fedor off during that period, and Arlovski needs the ring experience to get ready for his countryman.
Remember Sean Sherk
Just read your article on Sean Sherk (/news/articles/sherk-pessimistic-about-his-future-in-the-ring-2336) and it highlights some fundamental flaws in our sport that need to be corrected in order for it to stabilize and become a concrete reality in the States. I would like to also mention that Mr. Sherk's plight is a sad one. Fans can debate ability and quality of opponents all they like but the reality is that anyone who makes a dedicated effort to being a professional fighter deserves better than promoters canceling or having substandard conditions and precautions.
Mr. Sherk has shown himself to be a dedicated and upstanding figure in the sport. He isn't brash, or loudmouthed. He doesn't get into brawls at after parties. He doesn't get busted for using steroids. The sport needs more Sean Sherks, Randy Cotoures, Carlos Newtons, Kazushi Sakurabas, Fedor Emeliankos and Minotauros and not street thug braggarts with a punch i.e. Tito Ortiz, Phil Baroni or steroid monkeys like Josh Barnett and Ken Shamrock.
On the issue of the sport: Mr. Sherk is absolutely correct in every statement he made regarding an overhaul of the way the sport is conducted in the States. A sanctioning body is desperately needed for at least North America. Every Tom, Dick and Harry has a show with a belt. The trophies themselves mean nothing; every time a show comes out with a 'champion' wearing a belt, it dilutes the sport in the eyes of the mainstream the way boxing has hamstrung itself in the last 50 years. Casual viewers don't know the difference in KOTC, UFC, WEC or RITC. There must be one set of rules and one echelon of champions.
Additionally, a governing body could provide fair (fair enough at least) rankings for North America that would be independent of the promoter (hopefully). The benefits to having the governing body hold the belt as opposed to having the 'UFC Champion' is that the promotion would finally be split from the regulators and thus making the belt more legit. Even rollerblading has the XGames that are universally regarded as the pinnacle of the sport. ADCC is the same way for submission grappling.
If something like a governing body doesn't evolve soon to protect the fighters and the fans soon, I believe that this sport will never make it past the point that it is now. Hopefully this letter will reach the eyes of some of the folks with influence in the sport. Thanks for the article Mr. Gross. Keep sherdog.com bringing us the latest and greatest! – Michael Francis Ho-Lung, Fightin' Texas Aggie Class '03
Michael, my friends who graduated from Texas probably won’t be happy with me, but I had to include your great e-mail in The Bag.
Want to be heard? Shoot an email over to joshg@sherdog.com and it might make into J.G.’s Mailbag. I’m aiming at making this a regular thing, but I need your help to do that. Thanks, Josh.
